> The complete list of Korean words in Witsen's book can be found in an article by Frits Vos published in Vol. 50 of the Transactions of the Royal Asiatic Society, Korea Branch (1975).
> > Boudewijn Walraven
> and reprinted at the end of Br. John-Paul Buys's 'Hamel's Journal' (RAS).
Could someone please confirm or deny that this is indeed the FIRST list of Korean words published in Europe? Many thanks. Br Anthony

I may have missed some messages, so I'm not sure that someone else hasn't already pointed this out, but in the list of Korean words Henny Savenije gives us from Witsen's 1705 book, there are a number of words in which an initial _J_ is mistakenly given as _F_. Printers who "transliterated" the florid typeface of the original into our more ordinary roman typefaces have perpetuated this error. Here are the words in question. Keep in mind that in Dutch, the initial _J_ is pronounced like the initial _Y_ in English.
> Fangࠡ sheep [Should be _Jang_.]
> Facktey camel [Should be _Jacktey_. A middle-Korean word for _camel_ was _yaktae_.]
> Poetfia idol (i assume that an f might have been read as an s over here) [Here the _f_ is a mistake for the old "long s." Americans may remember seeing the Declaration of Independence when they were kids and wondered why in the world those old, supposedly smart forefathers or ours misspelt _Congress_ as _Congrefs_.]
> Fen lead [Should be _Jen_.]
> fangsijck rice [Should be _Jangsijck_.]
> Fijb mouth [Should be _Jijb_.]
> Faeck medicine [Should be _Jaeck_.]
> fangseij day [Should be _Jangseij_.]
> Oodfeij day after tomorrow [I don't have the book sitting in front of me right now, so I'll have to check it, but as I recall this was given as _Oodseij_ or maybe _Oodjeij_.]
> Furij glass [Should be _Jurij_.]
> Furijmano mirror [Should be _Jurijmano_.]
> Fangman nobility [Should be _Jangman_.]
> t'Fangsio officer [Should be _t'Jangsio_.]
> Fijewor February [Should be _Jijewor_.]
> Foevoor June [Should be _Joevoor_.]
Best regards, Gary Rector

On Sat, 4 Apr 1998, Sam Martin wrote:
> The allophonics of the plain consonants is like that made explicit in the Mc-R romanization except for the unexplained Ater "child" for (I presume)ࠡtul "son" (Mc-R adUl), cf Podo "grapes" = phwotwo (Mc-R p'odo).
I have seen speculation by some linguists that the final liquid may not have been wholly reduced to an _l_ sound until quite late and that voicing of intervocalic occurrences of the lenis stops wasn't consistent in earlier periods. In fact, you refer to Ramstedt on the matter of the pronunciation of final _l_ on page 28 of your _Reference Grammar_. Maybe that would explain _Ater_.
Regards, Gary Rector

Again there are some errors stemming from typographical problems in the recently printed versions of the vocabulary lists.
On Sun, 5 Apr 1998, Henny Savenije wrote:
> Socfom 3 [Should be _Socsom_. The "long s" has been misinterpreted as an _f_ again.]
> Docfo 4 [Should be _Docso_.]
> Cafeto 5 [Here again the _f_ should be an _s_.]
> fafeljon 6 [The first _f_ is a _j_ and the second, a "long s."]
> feroptchil 7 [f --> j]
> faderpal 8 [f --> j]
> forchip 10 [f --> j]
> Schierri or fiergan 30 [f --> s]
> fegu or jefwijn 60 [_jefwijn- should be _jeswijn_.]
> faderor jadarn 80 [f --> j]
> fijrpeijck 200 [f --> j]
> foeckpeijck 600 [f --> j]
> fijrtcien࠱000 [f --> j]
> fijetcien 2000 [f --> j]
> foecktcien 6000 [f --> j]
> fyroock 10000 [f --> j]
> fijoock 20000 [f --> j]
> foeoock 80000 [f --> j]
> fijoock 100000 [f --> j]
> Taffet 5 [ff --> ss]
> fofet or jacet 6 [fofet --> joset]
> foderp or jadarp 8 [f --> j]
Regards, Gary Rector

At 08:38 7-4-98 +0900, Anthony wrote:
>On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 WALRAVEN@rullet.leidenuniv.nl wrote:
> >> The complete list of Korean words in Witsen's book can be found in an article by Frits Vos published in Vol. 50 of the Transactions of the Royal Asiatic Society, Korea Branch (1975).
>> >> Boudewijn Walraven
>> >and reprinted at the end of Br. John-Paul Buys's 'Hamel's Journal' (RAS).
>Could someone please confirm or deny that this is indeed the FIRST list of Korean words published in Europe? Many thanks. Br Anthony
And quoted in my mails. Since Hamel didn't write any reference to his Journal other than the things I quoted yesterday and since between the period Hamel wrote his Journal and Witsen published his book, I would assume that this was the first list, but maybe my knowledge is lacking, or maybe in the huge archives of the VOC someone or the other document is being overlooked.
Regards
Henny > -------
Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/index2.htm and you can feel the thrill about the adventures of Hamel in Korea (1653-1666)

Gary and the rest of this list,
I thought I did write that the f and s could be read as the same though in the typesetting of those days there is a difference between the f and the s though very small the f had a small horizantal line through the verticall one, the f had one ending at the vertical one. Maybe the printer made a mistake, but since I deliberaletely printed them in small letters and not in Capitals.


The full English translation of Eibokken (spelling variants Ibocken/Eibocken) is in Frits Vos' article in the RAS Transactions vol. 50 (1975). The first edition of Witsen's boek did not contain the section on Korea. Boudewijn Walraven
At 01:56 8-04-98 MET, Gari Keith Ledyard wrote:
>Dear Henny and the rest,
>I was going to answer Monday but didn't find the time and by today many more kilobytes have piled up.it's hopeless to respond to everything I want to, but then somebody else is bound to make the same point anyway. I'm glad that this exchange has turned up the old Witsen vocabulary, because it has so much of interest and I had forgotten all about it. Witsen's informant for this and quite a few other remarks of a non-linguistic nature in <Noord en Oost Tartarye> was Mattheus Ibocken, as Henny says the barber on de Sperwer.In those days barbers doubled as surgeons, and that's what he was called in the English translation.
> I agree with Henny's speculation on Ibocken's abilities.Such as it was in those days, he was a man of practical science and some intelligence.After 13 years in Korea I would be surprised if he hadn't learned the Korean alphabet, and thus believe that we probably can't assume that his spellings are uninfluenced by Korean orthography. Ibocken's recollections of the Korean scene, as found in Witsen, don't depart substantially from Hamel's except that his are even shorter than Hamel's if that is possible. Witsen's account of Korea, particularly because of the Ibocken contribution, is well worth translating into English, but as far as I know it hasn't been translated yet. Witsen was a trader and business agent who had extensive dealings with Moscovy, and who extended his interests from there eastward into "Tartarye," whence his inclusion of Korea. The 1705 edition of <Noord en Oost Tartarye> is found in many libraries, but I've never seen the earlier edition, which if I remember correctly came out in the early 1680s. Serious study of the vocabularies would probably be helped by getting hold of both editions. I'm not sure what Fritz said about this because I don't have his article at hand.
>I valued very much Brother Jean-Paul Buys' clarification of the location of the Hamel monument, although as he wondered it is perhaps only one Hamel monument.Unless the district seat of TaejOng-hyOn was in a different location in 1653 than it is now, the site of the shipwreck was even closer than four "mijl."This confirms my statement in <The Dutch Come to Korea> that the wreck was in the vicinity of Mosulp'o, which is about as far from Sagye village as TaejOng is.
> As to the latitude of the southern Cheju coast, which, as both Henny and Brother Buys point out, is North 33 degrees 32 minutes according to the measurement of one of the surviving officers as reported by Hamel, it is a little problematic, although we might give him the same allowance that Henny insisted upon for the four mijls.In fact the latitude of the southern coast of Cheju in this area is more like 33 degrees 13 minutes. However, 33-32 north is almost exactly the latitude of Cheju city, then as now the capital of the island. I speculated in <The Dutch Come to Korea> that in fact the ship's officer might well have taken his sighting there, in spite of the fact that Hamel's narrative states that he took it at the site of the shipwreck. This might have been another area in which memories were hazy after 13 years. would seem to me that it would be very difficult to take a polar elevation on the south side of Cheju, since Mount Halla looms very high from that perspective, and it would not have been easy to guess the horizon.(Forget that Halla itself is almost always enveloped in clouds and mist.)Whereas on the northern coast, at Cheju city (to which the Hollanders were almost immediately taken), the sea provides the perfect horizon for a polar elevation. and 33-32 north is very nearly perfect--for Cheju city. Added to which, the Dutch sailors had more leisure and comfort for an observation, as well as a congenial Magistrate in Yi WOnjin. This would also solve the problem of paper and ink that Henny worried about.
> > What I was hoping somebody would tell me is that when the >monument was built, some local historian was consulted who would have >known of any local traditions as to where the wreck had occurred. I would be much more reassured if this was the case.>The real monument is in Sagye, then is there another one in SOgwip'o? It would seem so, but maybe my information is in error. I hope that someone pins this down before this topic dries up and the Korea net goes dead for another month or so. It's nice now to have all the buzz-- I wish it were always like this.
> >Gari Ledyard > > >
Subject: : "The Dutch Come to Korea" errata date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:04:14 -0400 (EDT) from: Gari Keith Ledyard <gkl1@columbia.edu> Korean-studies@mailbase.ac.uk



Dear Henny and the rest, I was going to answer Monday but didn't find the time and by today many more kilobytes have piled up. It's hopeless to respond to everything I want to, but then somebody else is bound to make the same point anyway. I'm glad that this exchange has turned up the old Witsen vocabulary, because it has so much of interest and I had forgotten all about it. Witsen's informant for this and quite a few other remarks of a non-linguistic nature in <Noord en Oost Tartarye> was Mattheus Ibocken , as Henny says the barber on de Sperwer.In those days barbers doubled as surgeons, and that's what he was called in the English translation. I agree with Henny's speculation on Ibocken's abilities. Such as it was in those days, he was a man of practical science and some intelligence. After 13 years in Korea I would be surprised if he hadn't learned the Korean alphabet, and thus believe that we probably can't assume that his spellings are uninfluenced by Korean orthography. Ibocken's recollections of the Korean scene, as found in Witsen, don't depart substantially from Hamel's except that his are even shorter than Hamel's if that is possible.Witsen's account of Korea, particularly because of the Ibocken contribution, is well worth translating into English, but as far as I know it hasn't been translated yet.Witsen was a trader and business agent who had extensive dealings with Moscovy, and who extended his interests from there eastward into "Tartarye," whence his inclusion of Korea.The 1705 edition of <Noord en Oost Tartarye> is found in many libraries, but I've never seen the earlier edition, which if I remember correctly came out in the early 1680s.Serious study of the vocabularies would probably be helped by getting hold of both editions. I'm not sure what Fritz said about this because I don't have his article at hand. I valued very much Brother Jean-Paul Buys' clarification of the location of the Hamel monument, although as he wondered it is perhaps only one Hamel monument. Unless the district seat of TaejOng-hyOn was in a different location in 1653 than it is now, the site of the shipwreck was even closer than four "mijl."This confirms my statement in <The Dutch Come to Korea> that the wreck was in the vicinity of Mosulp'o, which is about as far from Sagye village as TaejOng is. As to the latitude of the southern Cheju coast, which, as both Henny and Brother Buys point out, is North 33 degrees 32 minutes according to the measurement of one of the surviving officers as reported by Hamel, it is a little problematic, although we might give him the same allowance that Henny insisted upon for the four mijls.In fact the latitude of the southern coast of Cheju in this area is more like 33 degrees 13 minutes. However, 33-32 north is almost exactly the latitude of Cheju city, then as now the capital of the island.I speculated in <The Dutch Come to Korea> that in fact the ship's officer might well have taken his sighting there, in spite of the fact that Hamel's narrative states that he took it at the site of the shipwreck.This might have been another area in which memories were hazy after 13 years.It would seem to me that it would be very difficult to take a polar elevation on the south side of Cheju, since Mount Halla looms very high from that perspective, and it would not have been easy to guess the horizon.(forget that Halla itself is almost always enveloped in clouds and mist.) Whereas on the northern coast, at Cheju city (to which the Hollanders were almost immediately taken), the sea provides the perfect horizon for a polar elevation. and 33-32 north is very nearly perfect--for Cheju city. Added to which, the Dutch sailors had more leisure and comfort for an observation, as well as a congenial Magistrate in Yi WOnjin. This would also solve the problem of paper and ink that Henny worried about.
What I was hoping somebody would tell me is that when the monument was built, some local historian was consulted who would have known of any local traditions as to where the wreck had occurred.I would be much more reassured if this was the case. The real monument is in Sagye, then is there another one in SOgwip'o? It would seem so, but maybe my information is in error. I hope that someone pins this down before this topic dries up and the Korea net goes dead for another month or so.It's nice now to have all the buzz-- I wish it were always like this.
Gari Ledyard

Hi All,
Before I dive more into the discussion with Gari, I want to point out the excellent homepage of Marion Peters about Witsen and his life the URL: http://www.xs4all.nl/~mhpeters/
Enjoy reading

Sincerely Henny

Hi Gary and the rest of the list,
Jan wrote me from the Philippines I will quote his mail:
> >Gary Ledyard wrote
> >>I valued very much Brother Jean-Paul Buys' clarification of the location of the Hamel monument, although as he wondered it is perhaps only one Hamel monument. Unless the district seat of TaejOng-hyOn was in a different location in 1653 than it is now, the site of the shipwreck was >>even closer than four "mijl."This confirms my statement in <The Dutch Come to Korea> that the wreck was in the vicinity of Mosulp'o, which is about as far from Sagye village as TaejOng is.
> >Now I'm interested to know why Gary Ledyard thinks that the wreck was in the vicinity of Mosulp'o. I have a large scale map of Cheju-do in front of me and it shows that Mosulp'o is so close to Taejong, that it is in fact part of Taejong (less than 1 kilometre from the "centre" of Taejong). If the shipwreck occurred there, why was it not before the next day at noon that they spotted the first human being in the distance? The site near the Hamel monument is very deserted, even the hamlet of Sagye-ri is at 2 kilometres distance. Together with the fact of the distance of 4 miles to Taejong, makes the site near the Hamel monument much more likely to be the place. Anyway, I have planned to travel to Cheju-do this year and see it all for myself. I hope I'll be able to shed more light on this question after that.
> >>As to the latitude of the southern Cheju coast, which, as both Henny and Brother Buys point out, is North 33 degrees 32 minutes according to the measurement of one of the surviving officers as reported by Hamel, it is a little problematic, although we might give him the same allowance that Henny insisted upon for the four mijls.In fact the latitude of the southern coast of Cheju in this area is more like 33 degrees 13 minutes. However, 33-32 north is almost exactly the latitude of Cheju city, then as now the capital of the island.I speculated in <The Dutch Come to Korea> that in fact the ship's officer might well have taken his sighting there,
>>in spite of the fact that Hamel's narrative states that he took it at the site of the shipwreck.This might have been another area in which memories were hazy after 13 years.It would seem to me that it would be  very difficult to take a polar elevation on the south side of Cheju, since Mount Halla looms very high from that perspective, and it would not have been easy to guess the horizon.(forget that Halla itself is almost always enveloped in clouds and mist.)Whereas on the northern coast, at Cheju city (to which the Hollanders were almost immediately taken), the sea provides the perfect horizon for a polar elevation.nd 33-32 north is very nearly perfect--for Cheju city. Added to which, the Dutch sailors had more leisure and comfort for an observation, as well as a congenial Magistrate in Yi WOnjin. This would also solve the problem of paper and ink that Henny worried about.
> >I like to comment on this one and for the very first time I'm going use professional "weapons". I am a hydrographic surveyor, but graduated as a geodetic engineer. In both qualities, I did observations of celestial bodies. Most probably, the coxwain did not use the polar star for his latitude measurement. The polar star deviates + and - 1 degree in elevation and without tables, an accurate observation cannot be done. Also, the polar star is too faint to sight at dawn or dusk or even with full moon with a sextant and in other occasions, the horizon cannot be seen. Sailors (even nowadays) take latitude from the sun at noon. By observing the culmination (highest elevation) of the sun, you can eliminate the factor time. Still you need a table (of the sun's declination), but a coxwain who takes sun-shots every day, will be well aware of the approximate declination at a certain date. So a sun-shot could be done without a timepiece and without tables, both items are unlikely to survive a 17th century shipwreck. A sextant can be used very well after having been under water. Of course, I stick to the fact that the siting was done on the beach on August 18th 1653, but if Hamel's correctness of his reporting is in doubt, what else can we believe? Anyway, a sun-shot can never have been done at Cheju-town, that place is lacking a southern horizon. About the accuracy of the coxwain's observation: I won't fatigue you and myself with error statistics, but take my word that he could easily be 10' wrong, seen all the circumstances. The actual error of 18' is a bit large, but well possible considering the assumption that he didn't know the exact sun's declination of that moment.
> >> >>What I was hoping somebody would tell me is that when the monument was built, some local historian was consulted who would have known of any local traditions as to where the wreck had occurred. I would be much more reassured if this was the case.SOgwip'o?It would seem so, but maybe my information is in error.I hope that someone pins this down before this topic dries up and the Korea netgoes dead for another month or so. It's nice now to have all the buzz-- I wish it were always like this. As I said before, I hope to visit Cheju-do some time this year (right now I'm based in the Philippines) and really hope that I can draw conclusions that make sense.
>Jan Boonstra > -------
Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/index2.htm and you can feel the thrill about the adventures of Hamel in Korea (1653-1666)

Dear all,
Since everyone has been talking about the Dutch in Korea, I would like to ask a question that has been bothering me for quite some time. Several years ago I found an article by David Bannon in the 'Asian Pacific Quarterly' Vo. 24 No. 4 where he wrote an article about Jan Janse Welteree. In the article Dr Bannon suggested several things. The three which interested me was that; Welteree had taught sabre(?) techniques to the Koreans and this had been added to their military manuals. I think Bannon said that the King (Injo I think) had ordered Welteree killed, whereupon, Welteree ? grabbed a sword and defended himself. Injo was impressed an let Welteree live. What Welteree had taught the Chosôn military how to make modern cannon and muskets (are there any examples left?) And that when Manchu attacked Chosôn, 'Korean forces shaped themselves into standing formations', that is, suggesting that they were using European tactics. Now I'm writing this from memory and the abreviated notes I made at the time, so appologies if I've made an error.) Later, when I read Prof. Ledyard's excellent book, I was a little disappointed to read nothing about these tales in the section on Welteree. I also note that Prof Ledyard mentioned in his first post that  he has read nothing inbetween which substantially changes his views from that of his book. Therefore, my question is whether anyone can confirm or deny these claims. ('cos if nobody denies them, I'll keep quoting them in my dissertations.... ;-) Yours, Andrew

Hi all,
I have another interesting question: Hamel writes in his chapter about religion the following: "The monasteries are build with gifts which have been collected by the people. Anybody from highly placed persons to commoners contributes to this. On itself this, however, is not enough to live on. Many monks believe that all people used to speak the same language. But the big amount of languages originates when the people wanted to build a tower to climb to heaven."
This refers to the same story the Christians and Jews (and maybe also the muslims believe in) is this a known fact or is this just an interpretation of Hamel?
Just throw in your ideas please.
Sincerely
-------
Henny Lee Hae Kang)
Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/index2.htm and you can feel the thrill about the adventures of Hamel in Korea (1653-1666)

At 01:18 18-4-98 +0100, you wrote:
>Dear all,
> >Since everyone has been talking about the Dutch in Korea, I would like to ask a question that has been bothering me for quite some time.
>Several years ago I found an article by David Bannon in the 'Asian Pacific Quarterly' Vo. 24 No. 4 where he wrote an article about Jan Janse Welteree. In the article Dr Bannon suggested several things. The three which interested me was that; Welteree had taught sabre(?) techniques to the Koreans and this had been added to their military manuals. I think Bannon said that the king (Injo I think) had ordered Welteree killed, whereupon, Welteree had grabbed a sword and defended himself. Injo was impressed an let Welteree live.
>>Well if so, I would be interested in the source we he has this information from. That Welteree had taught the Chosôn military how to make modern cannond muskets (are there any examples left?)
Probably more in Holland then anywhere else. I know that there are many things here in Holland brought here by von Sybold, a naturalized German in service of the Dutch government. and that when Manchu attacked Chosôn, 'Korean forces shaped themselves into standing formations', that is, suggesting that theywere using European tactics.
I think that was not so difficult, if Weltevree taught the Koreans he definitely would have taught them European tactics as well, but again, I'm more interested in the sources. (I'm writing this from memory and the abreviated notes I made at the time, so appologies if I've made an error.) >Later, when I read Prof. Ledyard's excellent book, I was a little disappointed to read nothing about these tales in the section on Welteree. I also note that Prof Ledyard mentioned in his first post that he has read nothing inbetween which substantially changes his >views from that of his book.
>;Therefore, my question is whether anyone can confirm or deny these tales. ('cos if nobody denies them, I'll keep quoting them in my dissertations.... ;-)
The only important thing to do is to contact David Bannon and ask for the source of his statements, again, probably what he said was true,.
I will quote van Hove as you can find the full text on my website, but nevertheless a part of it is the following:
There is more by the way, which Hamel doesn't mention concerning Weltevree. In a Korean edition of the Journael, the interpreter Yi Pyong Do cites in a supplement a document of about 1700, in which Weltevree is described as follows:
Yon was tall from stature and rather heavily build. He had blue eyes, a pale face and a blond beard which hangs until his belly. He was married to a Korean woman who gave him two children; a boy and a girl.

The father and the uncle of the writer of the document were both connected as high officials to the court of king of Korea in the time that Weltevree was there too. One may assume that the document is a reliable source. If Weltevree had a wife and children, it was most unlikely that Hamel didn't know that. It speaks for itself to assume that he and the other Hollanders visited him during their stay in Seoul . In the Journael however Hamel leaves this interesting fact unnoticed. Possibly he considered that mentioning of the marital state of Weltevree would raise some questions by the readers about the marital state of the other Hollanders, questions who might be painful since most of them had a wife and children after all in Holland as well. In another Korean document, also cited by Yi Pyong Do, the following is mentioned about Weltevree:
Yon was working at the staff of general Ku In Hu. His sons are mentioned in the wheel register of the training office.
What is noticeable in this quotation is the word 'sons'. Maybe Jan Janse had more than one son. The in this quote mentioned training office was a government institution which was established to the end of the 16th Century for the production of firearms and for the practice of the use of them. The wheel register contained the names of the technicians skillful in professions like the manufacturing of canons. Such professions where hereditary in Korea and from another source we know that Weltevree was in charge of making firearms in Seoul and that he was considered to be an expert in this field. We read this in the Korean supplement from which the previous quotation is derived. It says the following:
Pak Yon was an expert in the field of the knowledge of arms. He was very skillful in casting canons of which the finishing touch was very beautiful.


Also the shipwreck of the Sperwer is mentioned in this document.
In the fourth year of Hyo Jong (1653) a strange ship was wrecked in the coastal waters of the Chindo-district. On board were 36 men. They were remarkably dressed, and also their stature was remarkable. Their noses were high in their face and their eyes sunk deep. They didn't understand our language, nor orally nor in writing. The court requested Park Yon to figure out what kind of people they are.
When Pak Yon saw these people he was very moved. His beard was wet of tears. He said they were his countrymen and that they spoke his language. That's why the king decided to use him as an interpreter.Many years these people lived in our country. They were incorporated in the garrisons which were camped in or around our capital, because they had much knowledge about arms and were also skilled in manufacturing arms.
When they had been with us for fourteen years, eight of them escaped in a fisherman's boat from a place in the south where they were accommodated. They reached Nagasaki. The governor of that city wrote in a letter to the king that they were people from Haranda (Holland), which is a vassal state of Japan. That's why he requested the king to send the remaining Haranda's who still remained in our country, also to Nagasaki. And so it happened.

That Hamel and his mates had much knowledge about arms and had many skills in manufacturing them, doesn't match with what Hamel tells in his Journael about the way he and his mates had to make a living, begging and all kind of petty jobs.
There was, on board of a VOC-ship usually a man, a blacksmith or an instrument maker, who could do some simple repairs on the arms, like muskets and pistols and 25 to 30 pieces of artillery with which the ships were armed. But in case of dire need, everyone on board had to be able to do anything. Then the blacksmith baked bread. Everybody on board probably knew how to handle arms and knew how they were put together. Maybe Weltevree had more special knowledge in this field. But he might have been the one-eyed man in the country of the blind. Because the Koreans didn't have a highly-developed arms industry. It seems that they imported canons from China .
Nicolaes Witsen writes in his Noord en Oost Tartarije:
snaphaunces are unknown to them; they use rifles with a fuse. Furthermore they use leather pieces of artillery which is fitted on the inside with copper plates, half a finger thick. The leather is 2 till 5 thumbs thick and consists of several layers on top of each other. These pieces of artillery are transported at the back of an army , on horseback , two on one horse. It is possible to fire relative big cannonballs with these canons.

The Korean author Song Haeng, who lived from 1760 till 1839, describes the Hollanders in a historical essay as follows:
amongst the survivors of the shipwreck there were some artillery experts. On board their ship there was around 30 canons. These were on wheels, so they were easily maneuverable. When a shot was fired, the canon rolled a distance to the back. Thus the power of the recoiling was taken and prevented the barrel from splitting open. Their muskets also showed an ingenious design. At firing the powder is ignited by a spark, which origins by hitting a piece of flint against an iron point. This takes place by means of a spring mechanism, which can be latched and unlatched.

according to experts this description points out that the Hollanders used muskets of the type which is known as the miquelet lock. In The age of fire arms, a Pictorial Study, written by Robert Held and published in 1957 at Harper, New York, one can read the following about this firearm: The miquelet, in simplest terms, was a snapping lock like a snaphaunce, but refined by the revolutionary feature of having the battery combined with the flashpan cover in one L-shaped piece hinged at the toe, the upright section being struck by the flint and the horizontal forming the flashpan cover. To shoot a miquelet lock, the shooter first cocked it in the half-cock position, and no amount of pressure could release the cock to snap. To fire it nothing remained but to cock it in full-cock and pull the trigger. But at times a worn or defective gun-lock did snap out of half-lock while being carried about, an always unexpected as usually disastrous occurrence commemorated in the saying 'to go half-cocked'.

This type of musket was developed by the Spaniards, at the end of the 16th century, and the Hollanders got to know it when they were shot with it. But in 1600 during the Battle of Nieuwpoort, the soldiers of Prince Maurits already shot back with it.
From the above mentioned it seemed that the Koreans were way behind compared to the Hollanders when it comes to the manufacturing and plying of guns. Gratefully they would have used the knowledge of the Hollanders. It will be for that reason that they were assigned to the bodyguard of the king. Song Haeung writes that all the guns from the wreck of the Sperwer have been taken to Seoul . There they would have been investigated by the people from the 'training office'. After that the Hollanders transferred their knowledge. When the incident occurred with the Tartarian envoy, several Koreans proposed to kill the Hollanders.
Instead of that they were exiled to a province in the south of the country. And since that time they had to make a living with all kind of futile jobs and even with begging. They were lucky that some of the governorswere kindly disposed to them and let them go us much as possible.
Hamel probably didn't think it wise to mention during the interrogation the fact that they taught the Koreans in Seoul about the use of modern guns. He also tells that only some of the guns were salvaged from the water, and that these were heavily affected by the water. That is of course strange, because they have been in the water only for a short time. From the Korean sources we know that 'all weapons from the wreck' were transported to Seoul. In the light of what is known now about Weltevree, is the question of the Japanese if the crew of the Sperwer also had the assignment to privatize Chinese junks, intriguing. The answer of Hamel was to be expected: They didn't get that assignment.
Nevertheless there was an order from the Heeren XII, applicable to all skippers that the trade between the different nations had to be obstructed as much as possible, by privatizing their ships and confiscate their cargo. For each confiscated ship skipper and crew received a reward.

Sincerely

-------
Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/index2.htm and you can feel the thrill about the adventures of Hamel in Korea (1653-1666)

Andrew Pratt's memory of the article's contents is not in all points correct (I could fax you a photocopy if you want) and the article must be extremely frustrating for anyone wanting to know the source of the various details he gives. The article is dated 1994, at which time the author, Dr. David Bannon, was Curator, Florence Museum of Arts, Florence S.C., USA. Probably a search of the www would yield a precise address. His main source seems certain to have been the appendices in Yi Pyondo's 1954 edition. Br Anthony Sogang University

On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Henny Savenije wrote:
> At 01:18 18-4-98 +0100, you wrote:
> > Well if so, I would be interested in the source we he has this information from.
Well, I too am interested in the sources for such information. My notes from article do include the sources (if there were any), an oversight I now deeply regret.
As for Dr Bannon, I've seen his name on a number of articles on Korea, but I haven't found an email address for him yet. He doesn't appear to be a member of this list.
> > >is that when Manchu attacked Chosôn, 'Korean forces shaped themselves into standing formations', that is, suggesting that they were using European tactics. I think that was not so difficult, if Weltevree taught the Koreans he definitely would have taught them European tactics as well, but again, I'm more interested in the sources.

No, not difficult, but I've read elsewhere (Turnbull, 'The Samurai'?) that the Chosôn military formation during the Hideyoshi was also a simple box formation, that the Japanese easily beat.
Also, the article also seems to be implying something different from the normally history. AS I understand it, the Manchu's relatively easily invaded Chosôn on two occasions. However, Bannon's seems to suggest that the Chosôn soldiers defeated the Manchu army. This, of course, might be just Bannon translating from the Chosôn source. That is, the Chosôn source might just be a propaganda piece on the battle...

> > >That Welteree had taught the Chosôn military how to make modern cannon and muskets (are there any examples left?)
> > Probably more in Holland then anywhere else. I know that there are many things here in Holland brought here by von Sybold, a naturalized German in service of the Dutch government.
I think I better go and buy a book on period weapons. I have already seen the weapons referred to as fowling pieces, matchlocks, flintlocks, and arquebuses(sp?). and you have (it seems) mentioned half a dozen other names ;-)
Thank you for your excellent information and translation.
Yours,
Andrew
p.s. I copied the graphic files, but have discovered, much to my dissappointment, that all my programmes are too old to read them :-(

On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Anthony wrote:
> Andrew Pratt's memory of the article's contents is not in all points correct (I could fax you a photocopy if you want) and the article must be extremely frustrating for anyone wanting to know the source of the various details he gives. The article is dated 1994, at which time the author, Dr.David Bannon, was Curator, Florence Museum of Arts, Florence S.C., USA. Probably a search of the www would yield a precise address. His main > source seems certain to have been the appendices in Yi Pyondo's 1954 > edition. >
I think I was little younger than I am now, and rather excited to find the article. It is quite possible that I read-in more than there actually was. Looking at my notes, I seem to have quoted something, then added my own interpretation. Rereading it now blurs the original distinction between the two.... ;-)
If you have the article handy I am interested to, briefly, know where I was wrong. I did have another note, which I didn't quote. That said that Dr Bannon claimed that the sword techniques that Welteree(sp?) used were added to the Chosôn military manuals and could be seen in the martial art of Kuksulwon. This, I knew was incorrect and made me dubious about the rest of the article.
Presumably the military institution Bannon meant was the HullyOn Dogam and the manual would have been the Muye Tobo T'ongji. The latter is my current research and there is not much in there which seems to suggest Dutch sword techniques. All the techniques I've found can be sourced to China or Japan...
Furthermore, the consensus of opinion on Kuksulwon is that it isn't 'tradtional' but an offshoot of hapkido and southern-praying-mantis kungfu. And hapkido is an offshoot of aki-jujitsu.... As I understand it, the 'traditional' techniques contained in the Muye Tobo T'ongji would have died out with Kojong's military reforms (if not before that), and the Japanese also stamped on martial art practice. So I suspect that post-war claims to traditional techniques 'handed down through the eons' is unlikely.
I will see if I can find Yi's article and trace the sources from there...
Yours,
Andrew

Hi All
Did anybody knew about the following list? http://www.metro.seoul.kr/eng/news/data/event/korea-r.html Which makes me wonder was the Yi or Lee dynasty called like this or was it called the Chosôn dynasty?
I still have a number of intriguing questions:
Without (again) referring to my website, I found a number of interesting things which I still have to investigate. Can anybody help me with that?
Questionable is: did the Hollanders leave more things behind in Korea. 1.One day a Korean song was heard with the tune of a traditional Dutch tune. It was said to be a traditional Korean song. The amazing thing was: it was exactly the same tune 2.The origin of the word Hollan Hada, which means confused in Korean hollan is a compound of two Chinese characters, their Korean pronunciations being hon and lan, both of which mean confusion or disorder Doing Hollands? 3.Why do Koreans call their mother Omma, (the Dutch word for grandmother is Oma), their elder brother Oppa (the Dutch word for grandfather is Opa), toktok in Korean means smart, didn't the Dutch fool them when they motioned that somebody was toctoc, (which means fool) My wife tries to learn Dutch, coming upon the word Gapen (Yawning) she told me it was the same as in Korean: Hapum, for me there was a big difference, but to her it sounded the same.
Probably there are more words with a similar background; it would be interesting for a linguistic expert to investigate those things. 4. In Pyongyong, Kangjin in Cholla Province, the people wear wooden shoes, which are made in the same way as the Dutch do, made of one piece of wood, but with high heels 5. An irrigation system is in use in the same village, which can be seen nowhere else in Korea. It is made in the same manner as in Holland
I think a number of these things are wishful thinking, but I would like to hear other people's opinion about these issues, again, I am in no way a specialist of Korean language, nor a folklorist, I would like anybody to shed some light about these issues.
Friday I will be going to visit certain museums, if anybody is interested in certain things just name it and I will try to figure things out, I'm meeting the director, she will be obliged to look things up for me.
Sincerely


Sincerely -------
Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/index2.htm and you can feel the thrill about the adventures of Hamel in Korea (1653-1666)

Hi Gary and the rest of the list.
> >On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Henny Savenije wrote:
> >>Which makes me wonder was the Yi or Lee dynasty called like this or was it called the Chosôn dynasty?
>I don't think the term _Yi Dynasty_ was used until Westerners and the Japanese started using it. Nowadays, learned Koreans resent the term and insist on Chosôn Dynasty. I do editing for a magazine which has a policy of never using the term _Yi Dynasty_. Some Koreans point out that the earlier Korean kingdoms are referred to by their national names rather than by the name of the ruling family, even though in the West we think of a dynasty as referring to the lineage of the ruling clan.
> OK, thanks for the extensive answer, I think this concurs with everything in the East, First from very common to more special, unlike Westerners do they go from Indicative to more common, like in addresses etc.
>Such similarities in kinship terms abound worldwide. Don't look to the Dutch as the culprits here. Check out the Nostratic hypothesis.
Thanks for this answer, but it doesn't satisfy my curiosity, I would like an answer to the question if those words, all of them or some of them, did already exist before the Dutch came. I thought science is made by making hypotheses and proving them wrong or right. ;-)
Regards

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